Curse

Neo-LD · Apr 13, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow stepping fails to rewards player skill? Wow, tell that to EVIL. You're simplifying the entire idea. It's not just "click a button and auto-spike". Timing has a lot to do with it. If teleports "Nullify" character positioning, then they REWARD player reaction abilities. One door opens as another closes. The very fact that the option is there, however, ADDS a facet to the game. It most certainly does not take away.

Return and things like that, if only used defensively, are the only shadowsteps in the game which are relatively ok in terms of rewarding player skill. Theyre pretty borderline, though. All offensive shadowsteps dont reward player skill. I think you are confusing exactly whose player skill I think needs to be rewarded. Shadowsteps reward a monk's reflexes, yes, but this is a small compensation for how much they remove required skill from the attacker. Shadowstepping destroys all skill involved in positioning, kiting, target acquisition, concealing intended targets, and more.

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Yeah...those are 2 skills on the character's bar. I guess you can't think of anything interesting to do with the other 5/6. Too bad.

Let me guess, a 1234 Assasin combo. Where do you draw the line on skill-less spells? When do they become a problem for you? 3? 4? 5? 8?

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Every single skill in the game doesn't to be drowning with complexity.

There obviously need to be a few basic ones like straight heals. But if theres the option for every skill in the game to reward player skill, I dont see why you wouldnt want that.

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I really do not like your viewpoint. It is so limiting. Your argument is also fairly weak, as you're arguing that ANY long-term enchantment should suck because it doesn't require much skill to use

Argue the facts and refrain from meaningless banter like this, please.

Zuranthium · Apr 13, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And you can't handle the current 20 second recharge? It already takes out a lot of skill needed in melee and you want more room for error by lowering the recharge?

Assassins will no longer be able to solo-spike with great speed; the IAS abilties are dying for them If a monk can't handle a Shadow Prison spike every 16 seconds that consistents of normal speed attacks....then LOL.

Assassins should be moving away from the BoA skillbar anyway. Shadow Prison on a 15 second recharge would act more as a snare to aid your other melee allies. A SP Assassin would just bring Black Lotus + Twisting Fangs and the remainer of their bar would have other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In theory it's also bad because the enemy monks will swap to a +10AL vs. your element type of shield.

I've seen teams bring one conjure of each type! One such team ran a Crip Slash with Conjure Lightning, some form of Hammer Warrior with Conjure Frost (yes, Conjure spells are still worth it on slower weapon types), and a Kindle Arrows Ranger with Conjure Flame.

That build was fun to watch. I really loved how they incorporated an actual ARCHER into their build.

~Z

Byron · Apr 13, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Additionally, is up with you acting like an attack chain is a bad thing. What do think a Hammer Warrior is doing when they go BACKBREAKER + MIGHTY BLOW + CRUSHING BLOW + HAMMER BASH? Looks like 1234 to me.

The big difference being that the hammer warrior doesn't have to chain those skills in order, or even chain them at all. A backbreaker, switch target, hammer bash->crushing is possible and effective.

Assassins are much more dangerous for their mobility than their damage power, IMHO. Those mild nerfs don't affect their gank potential. BoA gave them both mobility and killing power, which wasn't called for. A normal string of the typical black lotus combo is still deadly effective, just slower.

Maybe sins will have to <gasp!> think about their skill chains?! I weep for RA.

Zuranthium · Apr 13, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The big difference being that the hammer warrior doesn't have to chain those skills in order, or even chain them at all. A backbreaker, switch target, hammer bash->crushing is possible and effective.

An Assassin can do Black Lotus + Horns on a target then switch and do Black Spider + Twisting on another as well.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 13, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You act as if all Shadowsteps cost 0 energy and are on a 2 second recharge. Also, you're telling me that positioning and kiting have been vacant from the game since the inception of Factions. PLEASE!

Its no secret that Guild Wars was a much better competitive game before Factions release, mostly because all of the most powerful builds did a great job rewarding player skill. Ever since then, Arenanet has consistently reworked the game to make it easier for bad players: shadowstep, spirits, and forced attack chains are some of the most obvious examples of this. Why do you think so many great guilds and players of the past simply left? They realized that Guild Wars was hardly about player skill anymore, and determined it wasnt worth it anymore. There is a huge population of players out there that are waiting for a game like Guild Wars, but one that prizes player skill above all else and balances their game accordingly. I for one would rather play a game where victory actually meant something (namely that teamX played better than teamY), rather than one where winning only means that "teamX had a build advantage" or "teamY had home-field advantage" or some meaningless rubbish like that.

So yes, thats exactly what Im telling you. While the average level of pvp player skill in this game has undoubtedly increased (as one would expect seeing as how we've all been playing this for alot longer now), the overall level of required skill needed to win in guild wars is very much lower than what it once was. I would hope everyone agrees that is a problem.

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Additionally, wtf is up with you acting like an attack chain is a bad thing. What do think a Hammer Warrior is doing when they go BACKBREAKER + MIGHTY BLOW + CRUSHING BLOW + HAMMER BASH? Looks like 1234 to me.

The difference is that a warrior does not have to chain his skills if he doesnt want to. Chaining plus-damage attacks together can provide a spike, and knocklocking someone can create a large amount of pressure. But these are just options. There are a near infinite number of ways that the warrior can choose to unload his attack skills by varying his order, target selection, and timing. A key feature of many many of those skills is that they only work well in certain situations (ala Bulls Strike or Prot Strike) so he must use those intelligently rather than throwing them out on recharge.

In contrast, there is the assasin. There is one and only one way to optimally play a typical assasin. Every 20 seconds, you select a target and 123456. Where as a warrior it is rewarding to wait until you sense the optimal time to unleash, this is hardly true for an assasin. Where as a warrior it may be prudent to only unload some attacks and save the rest for later and some other target, as an assasin, there is often only one choice: unload everything.

A big difference here is that warriors have meaningful auto-attacks, and their attack skills are merely extensions of these. Warrior damage is among the best in the game, and taking a beating from a bunch of warriors quickly accumulates into big pressure even if they are using no skills. This is why they can afford to wait for the opportune time to unleash. On the other hand, assasin autoattacks are fairly pitiful, but their attack skills are very powerful. Thus, the are their skills, making them more akin to a caster than a warrior. The only time that they are worth anything is during their 123456 spike. Do you know how many times on observer mode, sins dont even bother attacking between their spikes? They just sidestep back and forth, waiting to combo again.

Surely you can see the difference between a warrior flickering in and out of frenzy and rush to best optimize DPS, timing his bulls strikes to punish kiters, saving his shock until the moment he senses its KD will be most useful, and throwing his adren skills whatever manner he deems most effective - and an assasin with who sidesteps back and forth (or possibly contributes some irrelevent plinking damage) and unloads 123456 every 20 seconds.

Symbol · Apr 13, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

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In contrast, there is the assasin. There is one and only one way to optimally play a typical assasin. Every 20 seconds, you select a target and 123456. Where as a warrior it is rewarding to wait until you sense the optimal time to unleash, this is hardly true for an assasin. Where as a warrior it may be prudent to only unload some attacks and save the rest for later and some other target, as an assasin, there is often only one choice: unload everything.

This is wrong.
1) Even shadow prison sins usually carry a supplementary hex and can spike outside of SP. See [iPod] for an example of a SP sin running around assisting in spikes with partial combos and snaring melee with siphon.

2) Other effective builds besides SP exist. For example variants on http://gwshack.us/c229d.

Siphon speed and rending touch are the two utility slots and can be swapped out for whatever you see fit. There's considerable flexibility in how you can play. You can use BMT to spread cripple, or restart your combo for another chance to interrupt with exhausting, or assist in spike with impale, or snare targets with siphon if you're shut down -at any given moment there are a ton of things you can be doing with that bar while applying a huge amount of pressure.

The assassin combo system is too rigid, but there are a fair number of builds that aren't nearly as one-dimension as SP spike.

Neo-LD · Apr 13, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Right now there are no assasin builds besides shadow prison spikers, as far as Im concerned.

Symbol · Apr 13, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

That's a stupid position to take.

Farin · Apr 13, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

It is also quite true. If there were others you'd see them.

True story

Thomas.knbk · Apr 13, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

It's just because a solo spiker is almost by definition imbalanced, and the only thing a sin can do is solo spike.
Which means that in order for this game to stay balanced the assassin has to suck.

Seamus Finn · Apr 13, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

I’m still really surprised that there is no attack speed booster in the sin line...every melee class has a speed boost (paragon, ranger, warrior, dervish)

I

THe problem with attack speed buffs on a sin is summed up nicely in the SP BoA sin. Dagger attacks are already quite fast as far as weapon speed goes, but given a 33% IAS is crazy fast. Without it a ranger can snag an attack skill in a chain just by good interrupting, but with burst its much more a matter of luck. I can see a 10% IAS in the sin line as fine, MAYBE 25%, but 33% feels a bit too fast.

On another point, sins don't have one build at the moment, just one prevalent build. However, I think sins have been left in the dark by players and there are more viable and even interesting builds in the class that people haven't bothered to look for. I really can't say that any of the classes past prophesies have really reached a point where every option has been explored.

Zuranthium · Apr 13, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Wow, what ignorance! Assassins can do far more than solo spike? They have the potential to be an excellent pressure/utility class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

It is also quite true. If there were others you'd see them.

Mobius Strike has definitely seen play. It does absolutely no good to just WHINE. How about helping to change things by suggesting which Assassin abilities need to be improved/changed in order to give the Assassin more builds that are effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Its no secret that Guild Wars was a much better competitive game before Factions release, mostly because all of the most powerful builds did a great job rewarding player skill.

Oh yes...Distortion + Blackout + Gale was SOO risky and not an easy way to get kills at all! Uh huh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Surely you can see the difference between a warrior flickering in and out of frenzy and rush to best optimize DPS, timing his bulls strikes to punish kiters, saving his shock until the moment he senses its KD will be most useful, and throwing his adren skills whatever manner he deems most effective - and an assasin with who sidesteps back and forth (or possibly contributes some irrelevent plinking damage) and unloads 123456 every 20 seconds.

Again, there are other ways to play the Assassin. The 123456 way is the easiest and that's why so many people do it. But there are other builds with the potential to be much more versatile and GREAT. A couple of them are already out there and people just don't want to try. A LOT of them need certain skills to be fixed by A-net.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 13, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It does absolutely no good to just WHINE. How about helping to change things by suggesting which Assassin abilities need to be improved/changed in order to give the Assassin more builds that are effective.

Its interesting to observe how your argument morphs from post to post. First I was wrong, now Im right but just whining. This latest accusation that I am pointlessly whining is quite amusing to me, because if you notice, the only thing that I've done here has been to suggest ways to improve Guild Wars. Seems like the opposite of whining to me.

On my list of improvements is the complete reconstruction of the assasin class, starting with the obliteration of shadowstep and ending with the revamping of every single assasin attack skill. Easier, but also a possibility, is scrapping the class altogether since its such a broken mess right now.

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Oh yes...Distortion + Blackout + Gale was SOO risky and not an easy way to get kills at all! Uh huh.

If you dont think that Gale Warriors, ESurge Dom Mesmers, Prodigy Emos, CripShot Rangers, and BoonMonks were/are among the most skillful character templates in the game, then God help you - because I cant.

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Again, there are other ways to play the Assassin.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Zuranthium · Apr 13, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

To help facilitate discussion...here are MY views on what needs to be changed:

Blanket statement for this post -- ALL SHADOWSTEP ABILITIES SHOULD DISABLE NON-ASSASSIN ATTACK SKILLS FOR 2 SECONDS AND EMPTY THE ADRENALINE POOL.

CRITICAL STRIKES:

Assassin's Remedy - Change to a skill with automatic activation and have it activate when ANY Assassin skill is used, not just an attack skill.

Why? - Because now it’s actually useful, while at the same time not making Mending Touch inferior.

Critical Defenses - Change casting time to 1/4 of a second.

Why? - It’s too much of a time waster to have to cast it.

Critical Eye - Dramatically increase the duration (something like 5 seconds base plus and extra 10 seconds per rank in critical strikes).

Why? - Because it's currently a waste of a skillslot. The +1 energy bonus per critical is lessened when you consider that 5 energy needs to be spent every 30 seconds to reapply the skill.

Dark Apostasy - Change activation time to 1/4 of a second and slightly increase duration to 5 + Attribute Rank.

Why? - Because standing there casting a spell for 2 seconds as an Assassin is way too obvious and time-wasting.

Deadly Haste - Change to a skill with automatic activation.

Why? - Because you could make some great builds with this skill but at the moment it's too risky to really be worth it.

Fox's Promise - Change to a skill with automatic activation, decrease the energy cost to 5, and change the duration to 3 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Why? - Because otherwise Expose Defenses really negates the purpose of spending your ELITE slot on this skill.

Locust's Fury - Change to a skill with automatic activation.

Why? - Because this is similar to a Instant-Attack-Speed ability (though not as good because it doesn't help your attack chains) and I don't recall frenzy/flurry/tiger's stance being easily removable. It's also a waste of time to be casting this when you need to be attacking.

Malicious Strike - Change to an Offhand Attack that does not require a Lead Attack for it to activate and increase energy cost to 10.

Why? - Because the effect is currently almost worthless. As an offhand attack with no requirement, however, it could be interesting.

Palm Strike - Decrease to 5 energy and an 8 second recharge.

Why? - Because it's an Elite and deserves to be better than other Offhand attacks that are non-Elite.

Sleeping Wound - Decrease to a 1/4 second cast and 5 second recharge. Also change the duration to 30 seconds.

Why? - Because the effect isn't that amazing for an Elite but if spammable the skill could actually become useful for condition pressure builds.

Sharpen Daggers - Keep the 2 second activation but change to a skill, decrease recharge to 10 seconds, dramatically increase the duration (5 seconds base plus an extra 10 seconds per rank), and slightly increase the bleeding duration that is caused (3 + Attribute Rank).

Why? - Because you shouldn't have to waste time constantly re-applying a skill with an effect that's this small and if interrupted you can at least go for it again in a shorter amount of time. The new effect is also really stupid. Put it back to where it caused bleeding with each Critical Hit.

Unsuspecting Strike - Make it unblockable/unevadable.

Why? - Cause it's a leet sneak attack. They don't know it's coming (in RPG terms), so they shouldn't be able to block/evade. A 10 energy Lead Attack better be worth it.

Way of the Assassin - Remove the "while enchanted" conditionality and add a 25% IAS component.

Why? - Because the current effect is hardly worthy of this skill being an ELITE.

DAGGER MASTERY

Desperate Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds, change the activation time to half a second, and set the conditionality to "less than 80% health".

Why? - The Mantra is “Lead Attacks need to be worth it, Lead attacks need to be worth it...”

Disrupting Stab - Should disable all skills, not just spells.

Why? - Why not?

Exhausting Assault - Should be able to follow a Lead or Offhand Attack.

Why? - Just some versatility; makes it more usable for Mobius Strike builds. Might need a slight recharge increase.

Falling Spider - Set activation time as 1 second.

Why? - Needs just a little push to keep it competitive.

Flashing Blades - Decrease energy cost to 5 and recharge to 20 seconds.

Why? - Still too much of an energy sink.

Fox Fangs - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds.

Why? - It’s obsolete otherwise.

Golden Fox Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds.

Why? - I’ve come to the conclusion that most every Lead Attack needs to be on a 4 second recharge. That’s what Lead/Offhand/Dual chains need to be effective when compared to attack chains that bypass Lead attacks.

Golden Skull Strike - Add a non-conditional damage bonus of 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).

Why? - To balance out with Temple Strike.

Golden Lotus Strike - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds and energy gain to 3 + (Attribute Rank / 2).

Why? - The 10 second recharge is too inflexible with most attack chains.

Golden Phoenix Strike - Decrease to 5 energy.

Why? - Because 10 energy is a lot for something that's conditional and doesn't even do a ton of extra damage. Using a spammable hex with Black Spider Strike and Black Lotus Strike is almost always going to be better if this remains at 10 energy.

Jagged Strike - Add a small damage bonus (base of 5 + your rank in dagger mastery).

Why? - Again, it’s just not good enough currently. Lead Attacks need to be effective not just “oh, that’s cute”.

Jungle Strike - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.

Why? - To fit in with new recharges of Black Mantis Thrust and Leaping Mantis Sting, making these attack chains worthwhile.

Leaping Mantis Sting - Decrease recharge time to 6 seconds and decrease activation time to half a second.

Why? - Becuase lead attacks need to be worth taking, otherwise Offhand + Dual + Offhand + Dual will almost always be the favored attack chain. The effect here is conditional on factors outside of what you can do (ie. being enchanted or hexing the foe), so it deserves to be spammed.

Repeating Strike - Should be able to follow any Lead or Offhand melee attack. Also cause it to do +5 damage for each time it is used beyond the first in the space of 5 seconds (maximum bonus of +15).

Why? - Because it just isn't worth the energy and effort right now. It should be able to be used as the offhand attack in a normal Lead + Offhand + Dual attack chain and it should synergize a bit more with builds that give you the energy to use it many times.

Temple Strike - Decrease to 10 energy and interrupt any action, not just spells, when used.

Why? - Because no Assassin skill should cost more than 10 energy. 15 energy is a big investment for an ELITE with such a long recharge.

DEADLY ARTS - This is currently without a doubt the weakest skill line of any class (that was what I originally wrote many months ago with the first edition of this thread...it is getting better!).

Assassin's Promise - Reduce to a 20 second recharge and a 1/4 second cast and slightly increase the duration (equal to the energy gain of the spell).

Why? - Because it's currently only playble in SBRi group builds and maybe now an actual Assassin can give the spell a use.

Dark Prison - Reduce to a 30 second recharge and increase hex duration (exact same numbers as Shadow Prison).

Why? - Because it's too sporadic at the moment to be of much use, other than a teleport spike build with Deadly Pardox and Shroud of Silence in which you have to pump your Deadly Arts really high to make it work and have no self-defense options.

Deadly Paradox - Don't let it affect Forms.

Why? - Just so the new Shadow Form ability can't be fast-cast.

Enduring Toxin - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.

Why? - Because it's sub-par unless it can be kept up at all times.

Entangling Asp - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee Assassin skill.

Why? - This needs to be available at any time you've engaged your opponent. Probably still only going to be useful for Deadly Paradox/Dancing Dagger builds but at least there's some flexibility now.

Expunge Enchantments - Decrease to a 25 second recharge and have the skill disable itself for that short duration as well to add to the enchantment-removal stack.

Why? - It's just not ever worth taking right now. Hopefully this helps.

Lift Enchantment - For some reason this is a touch-range skill...change it to full range.

Why? - To make it more useful; it's pretty limited already.

Iron Palm - Reduce the recharge to 15 seconds, make the knockdown unconditional, increase the damage (equal to PALM STRIKE) but make it conditional on the foe suffering from a hex or a condition, and remove the "counts as a Lead Attack" clause.

Why? - Because it's not worth 10 energy currently. It does very little damage, is not readily usable, and the main effect is conditional.

Mantis Touch - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee assassin skill.

Why? - Because it's too conditional right now.

Mark of Death - Increase the duration (5 + rank in attribute) and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - Because now it might be useful outside of SBRi to add pressure.

Mark of Insecurity - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second and additionally cause it to drop the opponent's Armor Level by -10.

Why? - Not really worth taking over other Elite abilities with the current effect.

Scorpion Wire - Reduce to a 15 second recharge.

Why? - 30 seconds is way too long for this conditional effect.

Shadow Prison - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - IAS stances are becoming MUCH less usable for Assassins along with this skill. Drop the recharge to move the skill more towards being a general snare.

Shameful Fear - Reduce to 1/4 second cast, do not cause the spell to increase your target's movement speed, and increase the damage dealt by 5 points.

Why? - Because if your opponent is running away it doesn't do too much good to stand there casting this for 2 seconds, especially when this just makes them get away faster. The spell needs to quickly force your opponent into a predicament...they either stand there and get hit by your melee or they run away and take damage.

Shroud of Silence - Cause it to effect shouts/chants.

Why? - Totally fits in with the flavor of the skill.

Signet of Shadows - Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - Why not? Signet of Toxic Shock is a 15 second recharge.

Siphon Strength - Reduce the bonus critical chance to 25% but allow it to affect all attacks, not just the ones made on the hexed target. Also decrease to 10 energy and set as a half-range spell.

Why? - Because it's usefulness is lessened when you are forced to attack the physical damage dealers you're trying to debuff. It's currently like the equivilent of a Mesmer whose Spirit of Failure energy bonus would only take effect if they were actively attacking or casting on that target. Not good.

Way of the Empty Palm - Decrease to a 15 second recharge.

Why? - Because it's already of limited usage and for the builds you'd want to use it with the spell need to be kept up more consistently.

SHADOW ARTS

Beguiling Haze - Reduce to 10 energy.

Why? - The dazed duration is pretty short; 10 energy is fine for this skill.

Blinding Powder - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee Assassin skill. Also change this to a half-range skill, cause it to affect only one target, and reduce the recharge to 15 seconds.

Why? - Well first of all it makes no sense why this isn't a half-range skill (pretty damn hard to throw powder and make it go very far) and secondly it needs to be reliable. Being required to make a successful offhand attack hampers its usefulness currently, especially since it is pretty much THE only Assassin ability that makes Unseen Fury worth using.

Death's Charge - Reduce to 30 second recharge.

Why? - Because 45 seconds for shadowsteps is too long. These quick mobility abilities actually need to be constant enough for an Assassin to pressure with them.

Death's Retreat - Reduce to a 15 second recharge.

Why? - Because otherwise Return is almost always going to be superior.

Heart of Shadow - Decrease to 10 second recharge. All other current updates are perfect.

Why? - Because it's not constant enough healing right now to worth being used.

Mirrored Stance - If the opponent is already in a stance when this is cast on them, make it so that you automatically enter into that stance. Additionally reduce the recharge to 2 seconds.

Why? - Because it's way too conditional at the moment to be of use.

Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 10 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + (Attribute Rank * 2), and cause the skill to become disabled for 60 seconds when used. Also make it so that traps are not sprung by the character when in this form.

Why - The skill in its current form is either useless or gimmicky with things such as Deadly Paradox and Arcane Mimicry + Echo. With this change it would temporarily give the Assassin near-invulnerability without the drawback of massive health loss when it ends and not be abusable by other skills in any way. Worthy of being an Elite but not problem causing.

Shadow of Haste - Increase the duration by 5 seconds for every critical hit while in the stance. All other updates are perfect.

Why? - Makes the skill useful for melee Assassins while keeping it balanced for other builds.

Shadow Refuge - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second.

Why? - Casts too slow for PvP these days.

Shadow Shroud - Decrease to a 15 second recharge.

Why? - Because the duration is so short; needs to be usable more often.

Shadowy Burden - Increase speed debuff to 33%, remove the "while foe has no other hexes" condition for the armor debuff, and very slightly increase duration to 3 + Attribute Rank. All other current updates are perfect.

Why? - Needs to be worth 10 energy.

Shroud of Distress - Reduce the recharge to 30 seconds and change duration to 15 + (Attribute rank * 4).

Why? - 45 second recharge makes it a bit too prone to removal. The minimum duration is also lowered so that a Monk can’t just 0-spec and constantly maintain the spell.

Unseen Fury - Reduce to a 20 second recharge and additionally make it so that you are unaffected by blindness while attacking a blinded foe.

Why? - Because for this kind of build to be viable, the skill needs to be up constantly and truly allow you to cut through anti-melee effects.

Viper's Defense - Remove the teleportation component, increase to a 15 second recharge, and cause it to knock down and poison the next person who damages you with a melee attack (50% failure on the knockdown component with Shadow Arts under 4).

Why? - Because the skill is horrible right now; it doesn't give you much defense at all. With this change it would definitely give you concrete protection while still adding a bit of pressure from the poison as well.

Way of Perfection - Reduce to 1/4 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Why? - Because it needs to be reliable if you're going to depend on it for healing.

Way of the Fox - Decrease to a 30 second recharge.

Why? - Needs to be available more often to be really useful as a spiking aid. Plus, Dervish get a skill that does the exact same thing with a 30 second recharge.

Way of the Lotus - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.

Why? - Too inconsistent at the moment to be used for energy management.

NO ATTRIBUTE

Aura of Displacement - Decrease energy cost to 5.

Why? - Uses up too much energy to be worth the Elite status.

Mark of Instability - Decrease energy cost to 5.

Why? - Because there are better ways to spend your 10 energy if it remains as such.

Recall - Decrease to 10 energy.

Why? - Keeping in line with the "no Assassin ability should cost more than 10 energy" mantra. The effect here is good but 15 energy (plus you're losing energy to maintain...) is questionable.

Shadow Meld - Decrease to 5 energy and a 15 second recharge.

Why? - Because at 10 energy and a 20 second recharge, there's really not much point in spending your Elite slot on it.

Signet of Twilight - Reduce activation time to 1 second.

Why? - Conditional abilities need to be usable quickly during the window of opportunity.

Spirit Walk - Reduce to a 4 second recharge.

Why? - Because it's already very specific but at least now you can use it with Consume Soul on the same recharge timer for hunting down spirits in HA.

Swap - I think this should be an Elite, cost 10 energy, have a 60 second recharge, and be usable on ANY target. One thing the game currently lacks are spells/skills that physically move your opponent in some way.

Why - “Summoning” abilities need to be carefully balanced but they are a mechanic that could possibly be very exciting. Please think about it ANET.

Wastrel’s Collapse - If the opponent uses a skill during it's duration, have the hex end prematurely and cause that skill to be disabled for an additional 12 seconds.

Why? - It's too easy to completely avoid the main effect of the skill at the moment.

-----------------------

Discuss!

TheOneMephisto · Apr 13, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Wouldn't it be more productive to make a new thread under PvP skill discussion for that rather than hijacking a thread?

Symbol · Apr 13, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

If "player skill" was the only thing that mattered we wouldn't be playing Guild Wars, we'd be playing a FPS. Like it or not builds matter. Out of match strategy matters. Longing for the good old days where everyone played dual esurge, dual gale war balanced because it required skill is totally asinine-that was a pathological metagame with only one really viable build at high levels of play, and IMO almost as bad as the other extreme of builds deciding the outcome before the match starts.

The game is different now. There is a huge amount of diversity in builds. Warriors aren't limited to one secondary. Monks use more than one bar. Mesmers and elementalists use elites other than esurge or ether prodigy. The non core professions all see play (and each have more than one viable build). The obvious imbalances of the past few months are gone or severely toned down (jagged bones, rit spikes, soul reaping abuse, Grenth's, rending sweep + hexes, wearying + Melandru's, etc).

For the life of me I can't see how this is a bad thing. All this whining about how the world is coming to an end and how GW is dead as a competitive game is retarded.

The Ernada · Apr 13, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Geezus cripes. Some people just can't let go of their favoritism towards a specific class to see how some skills imbalance the PVP game. It's very obvious how stuck they are to that one class...

And what's even worse, they go on rants laced with personal attacks *cough Zuranthium and Symbol calling people whiners cough cough*

Yes the game is different now. And not for the better. Skills like SP that even a tard monkey can play is what is screwing things up. And FPS games are the only ones that require skill? That is one ignorant statement right there and tells me you have no clue what you're talking about.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I have one of those saved to my computer for every class in the game. EVERY class has sucky skills that need improvement. I'm not favoring Assassins, they just happen to need a lot of work?

Also, this crap about "offensive teleports take no skill" is quite frustrating. For the 123456 BoA build, maybe. Even then a better player will be better at picking targets to spike and/or faking out the opposition by doing something like casting Expose Defenses on the target you're not actually spiking.

~Z

Symbol · Apr 14, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Geezus cripes. Some people just can't let go of their favoritism towards a specific class to see how some skills imbalance the PVP game. It's very obvious how stuck they are to that one class...

That's a nice straw man you pulled out of your ass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Yes the game is different now. And not for the better. Skills like SP that even a tard monkey can play is what is screwing things up.

So what? You pick one skill out a thousand that doesn't require skill to use-and this is somehow ruining the game? Spare me the hysterics. Dom mesmers, water eles, mind blasters, warriors and monks of all stripes, all of these builds see heavy use and take skill to play. Furthermore there are templates from the non core classes that require skill (weapon rits, moebius sins, etc) and see play.

Frankly I'd much rather have a game with a few skill-less templates (SP spikers, hex stackers are the only ones that spring to mind) with some diversity rather than everyone one using the same build-even if the components of said build require skill to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And FPS games are the only ones that require skill? That is one ignorant statement right there and tells me you have no clue what you're talking about.

Do you have problems understanding English? Let me put it in terms even an idiot can understand.

Nowhere did I state that "only" FPS games require skill. But FPS are a good example because your success is determined solely by your performance in the game. Guild Wars is not such a game. Build making is part of the strategy of Guild Wars PvP. Building to give yourself an advantage over your opponent is part of the game by design. Pretending that a metagame where the build-making component was marginalized is anything but broken is delusional, no matter how much fun you thought that was or how much skill you thought it took to play.

Patccmoi · Apr 14, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Geezus cripes. Some people just can't let go of their favoritism towards a specific class to see how some skills imbalance the PVP game. It's very obvious how stuck they are to that one class...

And ofc it's much better when people are saying 'i don't like faction classes, scrap them and who cares about people that actually like them'.

Are you going to suggest the way EvIL played with 2 sins was skill less? It was actually pretty impressive to see. Did you watch iPod vs EW? They had by far the best SP sin i saw and he DID play quite skillfully. He didn't actually use 1-2-3-4-5 nearly ever (he didn't have an IAS either), just once in a while on an overextended target. He was spending most of his time interrupting and snaring. He was actually playing as a stand sin, pressuring, interrupting, snaring, doing spike assist with the warrior (that's what he mostly used SP for, that and getting overextended people quickly) or his own mini spikes on low targets, etc. And he got many kills, against EW in a straight fight, so he was likely doing something right. His build wasn't a common SP spiker though, he used BSS-BLS-DB-Impale so that he could actually use them in many different combination, kinda like a warrior can decide if he does a full adrenal chain on one guy, a partial chain on one and then on another, etc. And playing as a stand sin DOES require quite a bit of skill cause you're a priority target that has to go in melee and you don't have the armor covering for you, so positional awareness, etc. is very important, even moreso than for a warrior cause getting overextended for one second too long can easily get you killed.

Ofc if you don't watch any of that, if you never saw/tried Moebius sins (which are actually used fairly often and are quite powerful and interesting pressure chars), etc. then sure you'll think 'oh, just scrap the class'. The reason the SP/BoA spiker build is so omnipresent is because it IS mindless and requires nearly no player skill overall (target picking, some timing and that's about it). What it mostly do is force the OTHER TEAM to have some skill or they all die really fast. And i agree that this build is dumb and i wouldn't really mind if it was destroyed overall in one way or another. But what annoys me is that people that don't actually try anything with the class and just see 1 brainless and arguably broken build have for conclusion 'scrap the class'.

If you actually test stuff with the sin, you can find pretty quickly various very good builds to pressure in one way or another with different strengths and utility than warriors, and often going well along them too. Assault Enchant sins can be really good to 'open up' a target to be pressured down by warriors and offensive casters while every enchant on its back are stripped every 2s, Moebius sins can be very versatile pressure chars that can maintain VERY high pressure, Shattering Assault would allow for great builds IF the stupid bug on it is fixed, etc.

Various skills with the sin require a small fix, and i do mean small, to become viable and solid utility. Though i don't agree with everything in Zuranthium's post of suggested changes (and there's already another thread for that so i won't debate it here), he hits the nail on a couple of them imo. Just having a short recharge on all the leads/offhands requiring a lead would open up the variability of sin combos a lot and would make the combo system much better because having a skill blocked wouldn't suddenly screw you over for 10-12s. Look at Jagged Strike, with 1s recharge it doesn't actually matter if it's blocked anymore, you just reuse it.

I think the main problem for the sin is just the total lack of experimentation done with the class in general due to how easy and powerful some builds are. People all run them, or small variants, and pretty much forget everything else even though there's some really nice skills that DO reward player skill and require player skill to use well - that's actually why you see so little of them.